Adam Mitchell:
Today, I just want to tip my hat to my dear friend and colleague, York Franco, out at the West Los Angeles Bujinkan Dojo. Now the reason why this conversation is so important and you're going to find some value from it is not only is Mark a wealth of knowledge, he's a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, and he's been a student of this art for decades decades. So there's that. More importantly, it's, means something to me that the york of the, the generation of this project was through conversations that he and I had together. Over 20 years now, Mark and I have been on the phone, and sometimes our conversation seem like just minutes. But then when I look at my watch, hours and hours have gone by. So I think it's, it's important that his voice be heard as we kick off and, his spirit is brought into this. So without further ado, I wanna welcome you into the conversation.
Adam Mitchell:
There's so much information here. I really hope you get some value from it. And I look forward to hearing from you, about what some
Adam Mitchell:
of your key takeaways were.
Adam Mitchell:
Today, we're gonna be talking about one of the most foundational topics in terms of traditional, martial arts, and that is in the Japanese arts called kamae, often referred to as the posture or the foundation or the base. Oftentimes, kamae are seen as different, literally, postures that you may be standing ninpo the sword or with your body. And I want to go into some of the depths of this topic because oftentimes I feel as though it's very misunderstood, it's misrepresented, and oftentimes it's taught in ways that just don't really make sense. And hopefully, this will inspire you to take some deeper steps into this topic and have some more educated conversation and, and be able to really understand the importance of of CommEye. Today, I've brought on I've been today, I've invited my friend, from another organization, York Franco. And, Mark is not only an accomplished martial artist, but also someone with deep experience in Chinese medicine. Mark, welcome to the podcast, man. How are you doing?
Mark Franco:
I'm doing well. How are you doing, Adam?
Adam Mitchell:
I'm good. I'm glad you're here.
Mark Franco:
Me too.
Adam Mitchell:
Alright. So, Mark, we're just getting started here. And the topic that I wanted to have conversation with you about is really focused on kamae, what it means collectively in our art, what it means in martial arts. Maybe we can explore as a whole. But also I'd like you to bring not only from your martial arts experience, but also your experience in Chinese medicine, your experience in kinesiology. And and I know a lot of the work and experience I've had with you in the past has really been centered around so much functional movement in the martial art that's really rooted in Kama. You and I have had conversations over the many years we've known each other about this one topic.
Adam Mitchell:
And oftentimes, I think when you and I go to Japan to train, it's the dimensions of this conversation that we're looking for jinenkan, where so many times we could go and we can ask our teachers to work with us on some of the, like, really high level stuff, the complicated stuff. But I think you and I both agree that, that it really kind of starts and ends here with this word, kamae. However, before we get into it, what I'd like to ask from you is if you could just give everyone who's listening here who may not know you or the the work that you've been doing over the years, if you could just give yourself a quick introduction here and let us know a little bit more about yourself.
Mark Franco:
Well, so my name is Mark Franco. I'm I'm from Los Angeles, California. Originally from Santa Monica, California. Arts studying in the Bujinkan in right around 1989, going into 1990 with, my first teacher, Kevin Millis. Continue to move on move forward in the jinenkan, and I it was around 2,000 2, I believe, that I met Manaka Sensei. At that time, I because of the foundational work that that he seemed to that he conveys, I I joined the GenaCon for probably about I think it was about 4 years, give or take. 5 years. I can't remember the the time.
Mark Franco:
And then when met, to Sam at a certain time within that was a pivotal time within my jinenkan. And then, we landed back in the Bujinkan and have been, you know, studying since then. But, obviously, you and I continue to collaborate and and even train together, you know, as friends and and and as martial artists trying to understand and develop, you know, the style. I have I've been practicing Chinese medicine. I actually I actually started studying Chinese medicine at 14, 15 years old, I think I was, and, having, practicing Chinese medicine, or I got licensed in 2000, so that work. Other things that I've done, I've done Chinese internal martial arts and things like that york. So I think I'll touch on within this conversation. Right.
Mark Franco:
Xing Yi, Bagua, Tai Chi, things like that, as well as other martial arts, that, have influenced, you know, people, with, like, Richard Elias and people like that, Tubath Rebbeal, stuff like that. So, anyway, that's if that's pretty well rounded summation of what I have. I do have a family. I I have a daughter and all that stuff, so there's there's that as well.
Adam Mitchell:
Awesome. Thanks for sharing all that. So, let's get right into the topic, York. And we're going to just, you know, coming from different organizations, but also having some overlap in training. We met many, many years ago when you were in Jinenkan, and it's been a great relationship since then. And we've had so many conversations going deep on so many different topics. And I think that this is new, as I, you know, as I just previously mentioned, one that I know is extremely important to you in your teaching, in your own pursuit of martial arts as is mine, and that is kamae. One of the reasons why I wanted to have this be one of the, kickoff episodes is because it's often like something we teach.
Adam Mitchell:
It's sort of like the kickoff class. It's some of the first things we teach. However, in my experience, it is and we'll arts to sort of deconstruct that word a little bit more so that we understand it. I'm not going to assume that the listeners even or anybody who's watching this even knows what the word means. But it's really something where we begin and we actually go full circle and end with kamae. So if we start with the basic foundational postures of a specific, set of movements or a specific set of taijutsu or taijutsu or kenjutsu, And we teach a person how to stand, how to hold their knees over their feet, how to distribute their weight properly, how to, you know, how to, you know, keep their back straight, all these very, very basic foundational things. We start there. However, we carry that into new from a static position into actually movement and carried momentum.
Adam Mitchell:
And we can talk about inertia and distribution of weight and stuff and movement, which I wanna get into. However, just york real 800 foot view, and I want to hear yours and we can compare some notes here, is that when the student that I work with begins at this point and how my teacher taught me, is that that is the foundation or the platform that they go into the basics ninpo. And and then from there, it begins to evolve. It becomes more stable. They start to develop greater range of motion. They begin to develop more strength and stability in their movement as they gradually begin those fundamentals. And then from there, they move into form, they start to apply those fundamentals into york. And the structure is so important here in their base.
Adam Mitchell:
And then as they go through the form and they become, I won't say they've mastered it, but they become competent in those forms, and they understand the deeper dimensions of the forms, then they return back to Kamai. So it's kind of like you go in this full circle. And then when you get to that, when you complete that full circle and you round up back at Kamai, you're like, wow. This is where a lot of those you know, a lot of us say, I I'm just getting started in this. And, yeah, I've been in this for almost all of my life. But I can honestly say each time I finish that, you know, finish that lap, I'm like, man, I'm just beginning, and I don't really like, I'm just learning how my body is. This is how I really begin the conversation of Kamai with a student of any background or level. Tell me, where are you with this? Where's the where's the starting point for you, Mark? Well, yeah.
Mark Franco:
I mean, Kamai obviously is the is the is the foundational building block that I in my in my school, that it's the first introduction into how you take space. Right? New how you how you take up space and also what is your body doing and it's very uncomfortable. If it's not uncomfortable, then I think that there's, you know, it it's part of what what we call the tie new. Right? The the body changing. It changes the body to start to move and and and and have, like, what you mentioned, you know, the the correct posture, the straight spine, making sure that there's correct body alignment and things of that nature. In a lot of the work that I have done with Chinese medicine, with Taoist internal stuff, with with Chinese in internal arts and things of that nature, and even in some of the the Japanese, martial arts. You start looking at how the different layers of the where the muscles what are the muscles doing? What are the tendons doing? What are the bones doing? What's the skin doing? What's the what's the breath doing? What's, you know, all these different pieces? How are you aligned to heaven and earth? I mean, that's a huge part of my first I know with my students, the first thing I teach them is connecting to heaven and earth. And there you have the tenchi jin, right, you have the heaven earth and man connection.
Mark Franco:
That in itself carries into the rest of the kamae. And I find that it's it's it's it's I liken it to learning music. Right? Let's take the guitar. You're learning the chords. You're learning that uncomfortableness of of of really making your fingers do things that they're not used to doing and it's uncomfortable in the beginning, then it becomes second nature. And then from there, you can just start, And, you know, eventually, as you get to the and I'm sure we'll talk about the shoe hard e. You get to that at the stage where you're just jamming. You don't you it's no longer you don't think about things in the same way.
Mark Franco:
You know, it's a big subject, but it's it's very critical. And and I'll say that in my dojo, you have to you have to have it correct or else the other stuff can't I can't stack anything else on top of it. I don't know if that's if that's, you know, how that works for you. Is if that answers your question. But
Adam Mitchell:
Yeah. I think it's a great starting point. It's really new of the acronyms that I follow that I've used in my teaching always is form accuracy, speed, timing. There's 2 york, and the acronym just means FAST. It's pretty common. It's used in different disciplines in sports and, and and and elsewhere. So it's not something I made up by any means. However, there are 2 more to make yourself faster.
Adam Mitchell:
There's an e and an r. Form, though, in this kamae, in the body's position ninjutsu starting point, is we find in Budo very interesting because we not only talk about the the physical posture of the body, but also the martial, position of the person and the emotional state that they're existing in. We could also even maybe even go into the spiritual realm where, you know, when you're in certain meditation or in certain states of prayer, the body is in a different kamae. However, for in the sort of in the context of martial arts training, When we talk about, kamae, all these different, you know, the range of motion, the building of the strength of the muscles and the tendons, the flexibility, the tactical positioning, all these, sort of root priorities that we're trying to teach to our students, they also have to be coupled with intention. They also have to be coupled with a frame of mind and purpose. And I liken this to, like, arts body language. Right? You know, the first example I always give, Mark, is you know, coming I I had an Irish Boston Irish grandmother, and I knew when I walked in the house if she was not happy with me, She didn't get a fighting stance york she didn't hold a pot up in her hand or anything like that. But I new, uh-oh, like, I could tell by the energy that she was giving, the positioning, like, just she didn't have a frown on her face or anything, but you just knew.
Adam Mitchell:
And I use that example sometimes when I'm working with new students on this so that they understand that kamae is not just the position or posture of the body or how you're holding the weapon and everything, but also a frame of mind and, in in the body's language. This is where I think there's a segue that in my own experience, in our collective art, too many people have kind of taken a wrong turn, and they've misunderstood, kamae and intention and what that means. And I was wondering if we could step into that conversation and how you feel about that.
Mark Franco:
Yeah. I mean, I think that with my experience, and and we'll we'll talk about our our common ground, which is then the Jinenkan. I know that there are a lot of the the kamae is, you know, there's intentions with each kamae. And I think that that's a great foundation for the beginning and intermediate students. I know that. And when you start looking within the Bujinkan, Hatsumu sensei as he starts to get, you know, elevate you to the next levels, it's how not to give intention york how to change intention or how to that each kamae it's not fixed. It's not anything it's not anything that, you can't put a box around it or, you know, be that it it becomes very malleable. And the kamae itself also becomes more of a state of mind or or even that than the actual physical posture,
Adam Mitchell:
Can you get there without the first, though?
Mark Franco:
No. No. Of course, there's in my opinion my opinion, I've you that's why I was saying that the lev the elevation of or the advancement as you develop, you know, you start out at this very foundational. This is the kamae. This is the posture. This is that shape. And here is what you're what you're the intention you're giving and again, just because of our common ground, the intention you're you're putting forward with this kamae. And, you hear this as well, Hachim says.
Mark Franco:
If if you hear listen to his teaching, he talks about this as well. But, yeah, it's it's the idea of not getting stuck there, not not not that new being the deal end all. It's the found it's like anything. Right? It's it's, again, going back to music, you're learning your chords. You have to you have to do it this way or else it's not gonna sound right. And and and so yeah. Yes. I I agree.
Mark Franco:
There's that whole thing of and I I use similar types of of of examples to my students as well of that. Your mom when when you go to put your hand in the cookie jar, when you're not supposed to be grabbing a cookie, and your mom take looks at you and all of a sudden, you know, like, oh, I just messed up. You know? So, yeah, same kind of thing. So so there we I think we're in agreement on on that on that idea, and how as a foundation, there's this shape, there's this feeling, and then how do you develop and grow out of it through that let's put for lack of a better term, that shuhari process.
Adam Mitchell:
It's funny you said that because I was just thinking of the same thing when in Japan a couple weeks ago. This is one of the main topics that, Manaka sensei was talking about was training with Shuhari and understanding that you have the foundational things that you need to be very committed to, the root. And then from there, for those who don't understand shu hadi, then you have this separation, where you stay true to that route. However, you introduce new variables, new conditions to the route, and you kind of pressure test it. And then eventually, you completely disconnect and release from, and in in in ways own and become it becomes natural that, what we're talking about. And I think what you what I'm hearing from you is that really that goal needs to stay more in front of the student of you are on a process of. Right now, I know your lane. Right now, you're in.
Adam Mitchell:
Right new. And eventually, like you said, the intermediate student. And then I think what you're saying is what I'm hearing is that you need to also, like, really have a you have to understand this, that eventually you are going to disconnect from that. I mean, it's it's kind of obvious that should in a self defense or personal protection situation, you're not going to step into a kobudo kenjutsu kamae.
Mark Franco:
Right.
Adam Mitchell:
However, the mechanics of that kamae are very important. Every everything down to the position of the feet and the angle of the knee, the placement of the hips, the bend of the elbow, the direction that the hand is pointing at all and even the nose, all these things are so critically important for the beginner. They can't be overlooked. Mhmm. Otherwise, you're not able to get to that next step in the path. Would you agree with that?
Mark Franco:
Yeah. And I yeah. And you even have take it to even, in my opinion, even further than that. Yeah. I mean, from as we're talking about the evolution, then you start talking about what if what if your knee isn't aligned? What if your balance isn't there? What if your spine isn't straight? Now now what do you do? You know what I mean? And I think this is again that where that state where those that's the side of it. Right? That that side where you're new looking at, like, a totally different place. And so you start looking at all these things that are very, you start looking at at all aspects of what is Kamae, you know, and what and what what does it mean. You new? What Like anything, you know, I think it was, it was a muddy waters or somebody who said that it's, you know, even if you do the wrong note, it's not that one.
Mark Franco:
It's a one that that the next one that will correct it. In other words, even in music, you see the same thing when or in dance when you make a misstep, it's not about the misstep, it's what happens after. And Hachimitsu talks a lot about this. He talks a lot about how how this is natural. You're not it's not always gonna be perfect. So in the in the in the practice, we we we perfect it, but we understand that it's it's never gonna be perfect. You know, you talked about, the acronym FAST and and and speed and and speed in in the Bujinkan is not a word that's used. We don't use speed, we use timing.
Mark Franco:
And it's because, the one guy is gonna be fast than the other one york you may be fast today, but you're not fast tomorrow. But if your timing is correct, then all of a sudden, it doesn't matter how fast you are because you have good timing. And, anyway, I I digress a little bit, but, within that idea of now all of a sudden you go from this very static posture that now it's built into your it's been built into how you move. You no longer the kamae is in you. And Hatsumi Sensei talks a lot about how even by not having the outward appearance of a kamae, you take you can still take a kamae. And this whole, you know, even within, exist every kamae. So it it gets very merry maybe esoteric, maybe I'm not sure what word to use there, budo, I mean, then this is the study of the art. This is why these are these classical arts are so so different than sport martial arts where you where everything is very fixed and very, like, it's this way and this how we're gonna and in classical martial arts, it's not that way.
Mark Franco:
It's it's very much a very it can be it becomes very abstract. So
Adam Mitchell:
So I I may not have cleared that up. I realized I I didn't give the acronym, form accuracy, speed, timing, and in order and yeah. No. It's sequentially, form is first, and a person really needs to learn, you know, how to fold their bed, shine their boots, and, close their locker type thing. You know, you need to learn all the very, very rudimentary, basic, fundamental things. How to walk into a dojo, how to put your shoes on the shelf. I mean, all these things are so important in a traditional martial arts environment, and, you know, and that trickles down new just to the to the Asian arts, but also to the western cultural and martial arts. We see it there.
Adam Mitchell:
And so the form and making a person not only safe to train with, but making them safe to train so that they don't hurt themselves so that they're able to develop the right principles and values in the dojo, and they understand what's going on. Once form is in place, then they move on to accuracy where the movement is slow, and they continue to train it until they're able to hit it a 100 times without jinenkan, and continue to gradually, through proper form and focus on accuracy training, then they will naturally develop speed.
Mark Franco:
I see.
Adam Mitchell:
That's it. That's a natural consequence or natural outcome of york, then accuracy. Slow, smooth, smooth is fast, and you become fast through that progression. Then when I introduce an opponent and I introduce different skill levels, different body types, different sizes, different you new, then I now start to work in different areas of timing.
Mark Franco:
Mhmm.
Adam Mitchell:
And that timing can also include how much of a barrier of safety are you putting in there. Because your timing when we go bare knuckle is gonna be different than your timing when you've got boxing gloves on. That's just one example. When we train with, like, with bokken, our timing is gonna be a lot different than if we are using padded chambara swords. So things really change based on those variables, and those variables introduced are introduced as your speed continues to evolve. Right. That's how I teach. Yeah.
Adam Mitchell:
It was a it was a great model that I learned very early on, and I've stuck with it because, it makes sense, and and it works with students. So Yeah.
Mark Franco:
Thank you for explaining that.
Adam Mitchell:
Yeah. Let's let's talk about where you feel in traditional martial arts, this topic of kamae fall short. Where where do you see shortcuts being taken, not the right attention being given to it? And where can it be improved on from from your opinion and your experience?
Mark Franco:
Well, like I said, in in in my classes, Kamae is very important, especially in the in the beginning levels. It's very much a part of it as you're learning this. I'm gonna give an example. When I first learned from And you have to profile your body and but at the same time, you have to get that the the rear hand to the crook of the elbow. And there and you don't can't find the space and your body's fighting itself. Then all of a sudden, you start to learn how to relax your structure, and then everything starts to fall in the and and and and then once you relax your structure, then reconnect it so that it has structure. So that it's it's, you know and, again, the how to be able to have structure budo relaxed, you know, relaxed structure and things like that, where you're not a wet noodle, so to speak. And so what ends up happening is a lot of people take it for granted or maybe don't learn it properly.
Mark Franco:
Maybe I'm, you know, again, who am I to say? But so what ends up happening is a lot of people think that it's just this position york I think a lot of people have thought of it as a, instead of a posture, more of a stance. And it's not that. I mean, even
Adam Mitchell:
breaking that down for me. Break that down, the difference.
Mark Franco:
Well, a posture a stance is something you get into when you're about to fight. Like, you look at karate or any other any other, you know, martial art that that has stances that you jump into a stance and all of a sudden you create a shape and that shape is how determines how you're gonna react. In my understanding of our martial art, that's not the case. The posture is there to teach you body alignment and everything that we've talked about, but it's not something you jump into right when you're when you're when you're when you're gonna when you're gonna go into, take a position, you don't jump into Ichimonji no Kamae. You don't jump ninpo, you know, Junoji no Kamae. You will your your body as it's moving will have all that in in it. And it's not that it goes one to the other to the other. It's just it's it's all part of the movement.
Mark Franco:
Your body and this is where I think that the correct training or correct practice is important that that that that becomes how you move. It's not it's not that you choose to move that way as you have no other way of moving rather than that way because you practice so much. And so, the the the the saying that I heard, while I was, you know, my time with with with Kacem, he said something very interesting. He said, everything begins and ends in season. Means that and, you know, you're natural. You're always you're staying natural. And then something japanese. And then what comes out is what you practice.
Mark Franco:
Right? It's what's it's what's what who you are at that point. And so to me, Kamae is there as, yes, as a building block, but then the evolution is that then then it doesn't become that stance. You're not you're not going into the a stance per se. You may end up showing that through your movement, but it's new. It's it's how to right? We because within our art, you have it's it's, how do I say this? You can't show it. You you you're trying to the the moment you take a position, all of a sudden someone can dissect it. I'll give you an example. New time when when I was younger, in my younger days, there was a guy who wanna fight me.
Mark Franco:
And we're at, you know, at at local place. And I and I was like, okay. And I stood and she said, no come on. Or just a natural posture. He he was a karate guy. He took a karate stance. He was like, okay. Get it ready.
Mark Franco:
I said, I'm ready. Whenever you're ready. And he couldn't and he couldn't he said he he he he said, I can't fight you. Because I didn't take a position. The he I gave him I gave him everything. I gave him everything he could have, and he it was almost like you go on it's like going into the market and you and you have 10 different brands of ketchup. Man, they all look good. You know? So you give him everything because at the at that point, all of a sudden when he the way he attacks is the way I respond.
Mark Franco:
And I think this starts to look at, a lot of deeper principles that are within the arts, you new. So, that's how that's how I teach it. 1st, for the first stage is, yes, you learn the Kamae, And then you and and that's that shoot. And then we practice the Kamae, like, for example, New all of a sudden you're in the you you can call up the stage of of of that kamae. Right? Now you're moving with the kamae. Then later on, it's just you you you you're just in you get to the level where if someone attacks, it's already in your body. You don't have to think about it. You just start moving and all of a sudden, you can if you take it off, then yeah.
Mark Franco:
I can see that shape's kind of in there. But to your point, people don't practice that. That's a lot of times you see people who don't practice it enough, and it's not in their body. It's still it's still in their mind. And if it's in your mind, if you have to think about it, that you're slow. Right? All of a sudden, let's talk about you you you means that it's not part of what you do. It's what you choose to do. Martial arts as in anything is about practicing it so it becomes second nature.
Adam Mitchell:
Yeah. Interesting. So one of the things that you said that I wanna unpack a little bit and then, I wanna get into some observations that came up when you're going through all that. You had mentioned in one of the kamae in the art that you train that you had to relax. So it was where the arm is kind of your york the body is supposed to be bladed. However, you're also told that the back arm is supposed to be somewhat forward and that it wasn't until you learned how to relax and then reengage. Can you talk a little bit about that process and what that looks like for some of the newer students?
Mark Franco:
Well Some of the advanced students. I mean, it's a process. It's something that that I mean, this is and I think this is the point of martial arts, such a classical martial arts, is that you yourself are your are york worst enemy in a sense. You have to learn how to understand your own body. You have to know how to understand every facet of what of what you're trying to do, of what where there's tension. Can you feel it? Okay. Now I can feel it, but can you disengage it? Can you relax? You know, all and is the structure correct? You know, if you relax it, now does your posture change? Does your mind change? Where is your mind in this? You know, all these and what you know, hey. I don't I no longer feel tension in my shoulders, but now all of a sudden my knees are not in line york you know? And so little by little, this how am I supposed to organize the body to fit the shapes of that school.
Mark Franco:
You know what I mean? And so I'm gonna tangent up a little bit. And this is where I get see people who, like, well, I studied, you know, Brazilian jiujitsu to get this, you know, jeet kune do to do that, ninjutsu to do this, etcetera etcetera, and all of a sudden you're like, yeah, you're never gonna get you're never gonna get those shapes. You have to really understand the shapes of 1 new one system, 1 ryuha, 1 whatever that is. Understand it deeply. And when I say deep, it's not 2 years, 3 years, 5 years. It's something that it is a part of what you do, and you no longer have to think about it. Okay. And so this is where Kamae really starts to build that that those shapes.
Mark Franco:
You know?
Adam Mitchell:
Would you also say that the Kamai is and just kind of a side thought here based off of what you said that that kamae ends up being somewhat of a mortar of the tradition too, where, you know, it it holds the bricks of its foundation together where, I mean, we we, you know, even though we don't say train in the same organization, we both know what the foundational kamae that you're talking about in this lineage of Gyokko Ryu. The challenge that I see, the challenge that I face is whether it's seeing high level practitioners, either that I'm training with or someone I see online who are teaching and they're doing very, how do I say this without coming across as judgmental or arrogant? Well, I don't care. They're they're not doing it right. Their bodies are weak york their hands are just kinda like this york they they're they don't have the proper alignment and tension in the body. And they use some excuse of, well, that's how I feel. That's how I do it. That's how I was taught by who and who whoever, whatever, Shihan. And, of course, nobody was there during their training, so nobody can validate that yes or no.
Adam Mitchell:
However, you do know as a as a practitioner who has put in that time, like you just mentioned, like you have, that's not right. And if this continues, the the mortar becomes weak. The tradition breaks down 2 or 3 generations from now, and it just becomes very flaccid. And I'm concerned about that, which is part of the reason why I wanna have this conversation. And, where are you on that? How do you feel about that?
Mark Franco:
Well, I've currently, everyone's in the practice or not practice the way they they want to. I mean, I can't I can't stop that from happening.
Adam Mitchell:
That's right.
Mark Franco:
You know, it's just it is what it is. If that's how they wanna practice, that's how they wanna practice. Believe you new, I've we see it all the time. I mean, click on any YouTube, on any martial art, and you'll see, you know, whatever style it is. You'll see good practitioners, you'll see bad practitioners and everything in between. Yeah. And that's just the way it is. What I think is that, you know, maybe this art isn't meant for the masses.
Mark Franco:
Maybe it's only meant for the for those who and and any martial arts. You new, it's it's not meant for everybody. I've seen people I mean, we see it right now. People who saw the UFC go in thinking they're gonna do Brazilian ninjutsu or MMA, and within 90 days or maybe 3 years or whatever, they they like, I can't do this. It hurts my body. It's too much work. I don't you know, all that stuff. It's yeah.
Mark Franco:
It just they they that's not for them, you know, and so when people don't it it it to to do something, to do anything, it takes commitment. It takes sincere practice. It takes dedication. It takes being uncomfortable. It takes the scrutiny of other people to, you know, to tell you that you're that's all crap or whatever that you wanna tell you to say, no. I'm gonna keep going. And that's Hachuse said his message through and through is keep going. Just keep going.
Mark Franco:
Just keep doing it. Yeah. You know? And so for people who say, well, my teacher well, you know, to your point, who was your teacher? You know, what what was your frame of mind? You know, how dedicated were you to the practice? How how well do you listen? Are you bringing your own stuff to the table? All that stuff, well, you know, we've heard the empty your cup when you come to class type of stuff. Right? But there is a bunch of filters that we're gonna I mean, I'll say I'll say it like this. When I first started with Kevin Millis, I was young. I mean, I was 17 going on 18. I didn't know I even if he was teaching me correctly, I couldn't understand the teaching because my mind just wasn't there. I didn't understand the art.
Mark Franco:
It it it took the process of of meeting all these different teachers and and and styles and medicine and anatomy and all the stuff to get to a point that when someone said something, oh, that's what it meant. And I look back on on my early days, and I was just yeah. I was just I was young. I was, you know, I was a fool, so to speak. You know? So sometimes people, even if they're old, they're young in the art. So it's still a little bit of a naive naive kind of process where they just don't understand. And it takes a while. I mean, Adam, you know just as well as I do.
Mark Franco:
We've had these conversations that, you know, early on, you think you understand. And then as you get moving forward, like, even the the fact that you and I are just talking about Kamae, which is such a basic thing, and you come to realize, man, this thing is deep, you new? Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Mitchell:
I I had my I had my ego really handed to me by Manaka Sensei. I was about maybe 10 years ago, maybe a little more than 10 years ago when I went to Japan and I wanted to start preparing for chi no menkyo and I wanted to work on the specific lineage of sword and the most basic, teachings of it so that I could really, really hold that at that Menkyo level and and really feel deserving of it. And, you know, of course, I knew the basic cuts. I knew the basic 5 basic kamae and all the things. But as should be expected, when I get there, he's teaching me how to use my eyes, like in seigan new kamae and the meaning of seigan no kamae and to be able to look through and past and at and in and in front of yet beyond and like, and how to adjust the, how the eyes are looking at the person. And then I'm like, wow. And then he starts talking to me as the sword is at as my sword, he walks right up to the tip of my sword as I'm standing there in this stance.
Mark Franco:
Right.
Adam Mitchell:
And he just keeps talking and talking and teaching me, but not breaking his eyes from my sight. And I felt this impulse to kinda have to look away. It york of reprogram, you know, and and he said and he explains to me exactly. This is seigan no kamae. This is what it's and I'm like, yeah. Like, okay. I'm starting all over again. I'm going home.
Adam Mitchell:
I have to train this all over again because I have no clue what I'm talking about. And even though I'm think I'm there to, like, work in some mastery level, it's just I I am naked again on the stage with and starting all over again. And then he doubles down on that and says, budo this is in this is in every weapon. This is in every Taijutsu. This is the most basic level that you need to understand. And I'm like, what? Okay. And this is where I really it drove home for me that you can learn the posture, and you can even learn the intention, and you can even have a great instructor drill you to kind of very much couple those 2 to make good sense. But it's not until, you know, you will discover in when you go through that tradition, like you said, you have to immerse yourself.
Adam Mitchell:
I don't believe fully in the, you know, sort of become, you know, learn a lot of things and get rid of the stuff that doesn't work and keep only the stuff that does and then move on to another art. I think, you know, maybe people misunderstand Musashi when he when he taught that. I don't know. It's not my way. However, what I do know is that I'm not I haven't even gotten started on this topic because it constantly changes and becomes something more. I understood Shuhari, but actually spending, an hour listening to Manaka sensei talk about it on the floor sitting there on the floor of the dojo, helping me to really understand the disconnection of this, and what specific kata it's seen in was completely new to me. And, you know, I honor that so much. I'm I'd like to maybe take this take this, time to talk about and maybe pull out a couple of the kamae from what you study, what I study.
Adam Mitchell:
And so for maybe some of the newer students or people that don't, you know, even though we are talking about a very, you know, supposedly basic topic, I'd like to maybe have a couple case studies here, Mark, and talk about a few of them. I will go I'll begin with, the one that I always talk about, which was first introduced to me back in the nineties as hiraichi moji no kamae and be like the wind, have the arms out and the body in this flat position here and be like the wind. When I later, I come to learn that it has really nothing to do with that. And this could be perspective of a different instructor. It could be a number of different things. However, once I understood that it being the most combative of the Kamae because it trains york peripheral field of vision to stay wide, in a state of fear, you begin new of the first physiological changes is tunnel vision, and your peripheral field of vision closes. However, when training through arts constant exposure of stress in a in a in a rigorous training environment and keeping your fingertips at your peripheral the threshold of your peripheral field allows you to train and condition yourself to not have that physiological response happen and to be able to look straight ahead, but also acknowledging what's going on on both sides. In basketball, it's court vision.
Adam Mitchell:
And once I was like, ah, okay. This makes a whole lot better sense. Where you start off maybe like this, but then, you know, 2 friends come in from the side. Your body's naturally gonna begin to open up, and then more people open up and open up. And now you have to really sort of monitor and understand what's going on in this full 180 degree field. Once I started to once that was first taught to me, that was a real epiphany moment. This big flat posture that makes absolutely zero tactical sense for fighting suddenly became, with a flick of a switch, the most combative stance because in it, you are completely outnumbered and surrounded. And then it flipped again where Sensei explained to me in one of the different traditions, it doesn't mean that.
Adam Mitchell:
It means to protect someone important behind you. So now here you are facing someone who wants to get at someone on the opposite side of you and will cut through you no matter what. So again, now you're you're responsible for someone else and not yourself. So it comes with this intention also of or sacrifice and creating this this large sort of, physical obstacle that someone needs to get through. These are very interesting topics to me, and they're very different than how they were first taught to me. And I continue to discover more and more in that. Wondering if you could share a couple york even maybe you got some field notes there from what I just shared. What are some things that stand out to you?
Mark Franco:
Well, this is what I'll say. This whole the elements. Right? We're talking about you you start out with saying how in the beginning, a lot of people were learning, hey. This is the wind posture, the fire posture, all these these different elements.
Adam Mitchell:
Yeah.
Mark Franco:
I don't view it as no. It's not that. I view it as that is a piece of what we're trying to understand from these postures. I also go into the place of again, we talked about Shuhari in that, the yes. This is a shoe in the opposite position of and you're learning how not to have tunnel vision. But later on, maybe you you can't extend your arms, but you still have to have that skill. In other words, you're the the least side of it is new you don't need to put your body in the shape you have. That's already part of what you understand.
Mark Franco:
Yeah. And, you know, we we talked about Musashi and and learning all these different things. I think this is what I believe. What do I know? I I don't know I don't know Musashi But in my own mindset of how I think about these things is that I listen to all these people. I listen to Manaka Sensei, obviously. I listen to Ishizuka Sensei. I listen to Steven Hayes.
Mark Franco:
I listen to Kacem. I listen to and obviously, Hatsumi Sensei. He's the Soke. I listen to all his students. I listen to the students who who from all the general because they've all seen something in a moment in time that they said, ah, this is interesting. And we know that that's that Steve, the the how I understand that stuff was being talked about at a certain time about the elements and how the and emotions and all this other stuff. And so when you start talking about intention, you start looking at emotions. You start saying, ah, these emotions are there.
Mark Franco:
So to me, when I hear that, I'm like I I always I don't I never say, ah, it's no. That stuff, Steve, it's it's wrong. I I always say it's fascinating. I always think to myself, it's fascinating. Where does this fit? How how do we understand this? How because we obviously, if you look at his work, he talks about fear. He talks about aggressiveness. He talks about not what really wanted to engage. He talks about all these things that we and, hey, these are these are expressions, and these are ways to move through it so that you start to understand body movement, taijutsu.
Mark Franco:
And so this is where I see the depths of the arts that we're studying is I've never seen it anywhere else. I mean, maybe it's there, but I just don't I again, I've I I I haven't got maybe spent enough time in other arts to understand the stuff. But when you start looking at all these things, you arts going like, wow. You start getting a really well rounded idea of, okay. Yes. We're learning this in the Kamae But then this has to also translate into Jumonji no Kamae. This has to be in everything you do. It's to to say it's only in here means that you limit its its its availability. And so my approach to come out is very much a, yes, you're gonna learn these kamae individually, but then as you see and Hatsumi Sensei has touched a lot about this is how then you continue to transform and evolve it.
Mark Franco:
There was one back in the nineties, a Japanese, instructor or Japanese, person that was a student of Hatsumi Sensei and and and I'm sure of another senior, instructor, had to spend some time in in in San Francisco. So he because for work. And so he was teaching some he would, you know, every once in a while give a little a little class or seminar. And he said something to me that was very interesting or not to me. He said it to the to to the group. We were practicing Omote Gyaku. And so you have the basic on Omote Gyaku when you start looking at To Tagoho and you start you have you have the Motte Yaku, and then you had a Motte Yaku Tsuki. So we practice a Montaguekutsuki, you know, which is basically the wrist lock, and they and they attack with the with the with the they they they strike.
Mark Franco:
Right? And and so then it's like, okay. Now we're gonna do. That was the next stage. But he said he goes, then you have. Then you have. But then it it's then you start thinking like, okay. Then there has to be kicks. There has to be low, high, middle, low attack.
Mark Franco:
There has to be all these different things. Now you start just just with that new kata. You don't limit it to just the the the the the attack to the face. You now start putting into those attack into different places. So I I know I'm digressing a little bit, but the the Kamae is this way, my opinion, is this way too that you have to start seeing this as a more universal way than just as a very cut and dry, you know, it's it's this, but it can't be that. Yeah. Sorry.
Adam Mitchell:
I think I think for me in the beginning, it it it you know, I'll gently challenge that. And I will say it has to be that for the beginner student. Otherwise, there is no there
Mark Franco:
is no issue.
Adam Mitchell:
And and I never I never studied with Stephen. However, I have the highest and I didn't even realize new that you say it, the wind thing. That's not what I was referencing from Steven Hayes' work. I have the highest respect for him and a very friendly relationship with him as well. I if if I tried, I don't think I could come up with a bad word to say or a bad experience I've had, and I also know when Nakka Sensei holds him in the highest regard. However, my experience to kind of to align with what you're saying is that and I can even go back to the exact class, decades ago where this switched from this hirojimonji no komai that I learned, in the nineties, and then Manaka sensei taught it. And I'm like, oh, so it's not this wind floaty thing. And then you learn it like this for a specific reason as it's written in the Densho to keep your perceptions wide while gently wrapping an opponent.
Adam Mitchell:
And then from there, we begin as I said, we transition into the kihon. And anybody who knows at least Manaka sensei's way of teaching the striking basics or the moto gata as they're called in the dojo ryu, that damn hiraichimonji no kamae movement is like a fleece flying through the air. And I'm like, like the wind. And there we go. So to kind of support your point and saying that this is in a constant flux, However, you need to stay true to that shoe. You need to stay really rooted in the in the foundational principle in the technique. So from that, it's where I'm immovable, until in the shoot, in that first stage as an instructor, allowing too much leniency, I feel right there, allows for too much wander. And, I just feel as an instructor as a student, I've had my ego handed to me many, many, many times.
Adam Mitchell:
And I'm I'm only a student, but with the responsibility of teaching it, I feel as though we have to you know, Bobi no Kamai, another example, to strike the opponent down with a single blow. And Bobi no Kamai with the positioning of the hand the way it is in the hand on crook of the hip. It's no different than an interview stance in law enforcement. It's a position where if you take one more move, then you're getting knocked down. And I'm standing here. I'm not taking an initial step right now. And to be able to you york can't york can't create too many margins with that in the beginning. It is what it is, and it has to be taught like that.
Adam Mitchell:
And then through expansion and exploration, the new discoveries are found. And, I think that's kind of what you're saying.
Mark Franco:
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Mitchell:
Am I Yeah.
Mark Franco:
Out there? What's that?
Adam Mitchell:
Am I am I I mean, I agree
Mark Franco:
with you a 100%. I mean, in the beginning because, again, that beginner student doesn't have the the the ideas that we have because of the experience that we that we that we've gone through. And so, yes, I I agree with you a 100%. You you first learn that very simplistic york, and I'll be I even take it I'll just me personally, I take it even more basic in that. I don't even worry about intention at be in the beginning. I don't worry about any of that. I just hey. 1st worry about how you how to relax your body in this position that's a very that makes your body fight itself.
Mark Franco:
You know what I mean? Then then I then once once they start to, like, okay, start to get it, then I then I start giving them the more the more tactical intentions and things of that nature. But I think it's also critical. I think that the intention with the command with the posture, I I believe they're at least today, what I believe is that they're symbiotic. They can't exist one with the FPR, and and initially, that's it's very symbiotic. It it has it it it it'll it gives you a vessel to put the all that stuff ninpo. That's what the kamae is. That that vessel that gives you the allows you to have the intention, the position, the connection within the body, the understanding of structure, and and and, and and also gives you what is the idea of of of, how this school moves. You know? So Yeah.
Mark Franco:
Yeah. I agree with you. I think I think what happens is that after so many years, you you arts to think about it differently. And, and so with all that in my mind, how do I keep it simple for the students? Because it's very complex as as as we're both talking about this. You new, it's it's com it's a very complex thing that some people, to your point, may think it's very simplistic, and they don't hold it with the intention or with the correct posture or attitude or whatever that is. And then that their response isn't correct. The one thing that if your position is correct, the kamae is correct. Then when you practice the things that press that kamae, whether it be Taihin ninjutsu, whether it be, Ki On, Hapo, or whatever, if you're not correct, your your timing will be off.
Mark Franco:
You'll get hit with a stick or with a with with an attack or with whatever you're practicing. And so again, too, I think we're both talking about the same thing. I think we're both in agreement that So this teaches that, you know, decision in movement.
Adam Mitchell:
Yeah. And also don't not wanting to overcomplicate things, but at the same time, having a conversation that we're you know, for those who are listening to this arts hopefully inspiring them to not shortchange this topic and to see that, hey, you know, between you and I, Mark, we've got a lot of years in this art and in the in the Japanese arts and respectively in different things too that we can draw experience from. And to say that, no, it's not you're just striking a pose. Right. It's not that it's, you know, you used to accurately stance. It's not it's not just merely that that there is so much depth to this that needs to be that needs to be understood. I take a little bit of a different route and I teach in together the both intention and, and the the alignment and position of the body. However, it's not mandatory, until about 3 or 4 years in that the student is able to say, well, okay, Jumonji new kamae of gyokoru.
Adam Mitchell:
This is what it means. This is what's written in the scroll. So on its own for Yeah. You know. So
Mark Franco:
It's what it We we did get funny that the timing is about the same. Even though the approach might be slightly different, the timing they don't really start getting I don't really hold them responsible for those type of things until they've they've gotten their show done. Until until I've until I know that they've gone through all the material that they know how to do basic stepping and rolling and all the different things, all the facets that are in the which you'll find a lot in the tension in Rokono Maki that are or the the, you know, the a lot of these basic skills, the foundational skills so they can learn the schools. I I I don't really hold them accountable for those types of things. My I'm really martial, really careful on body mechanics. I mean, so much so that it's like, I want them to be able to feel from their fingertips to their toes, the connection through their body from the from the from the top to the bottom, the connections. I mean, it's it's and so because I'm so careful about that, then it's like, okay. Now you now you understand your body.
Mark Franco:
Okay. Now let's start adding pieces to it. So but at the end of the day, we end up at the same place.
Adam Mitchell:
Well, this is the next topic I want. I have 2 more things I wanna, I I wanna step into here. The first one is really about the body of work that I know that you've done on like the vertical axis and the movement that you just started talking about a little bit. I'd like to actually explore a little further in there and have you share some of your experience about the importance of the structure of kamae and the initiation of movement, and why it's so important that the kamae has to be correct, not just, you know alright. Well, it's you new? Look. You know me. I'm a stickler. If I see a photo of someone and their foot is off this way, but yet their body's going this way, I'm gonna say, dude, I'm coming in on you on your left side.
Adam Mitchell:
I'm gonna smoke your wrist or your elbow. That's it. Right? Because it's as simple as that. It doesn't get any more clear. And with my students, if a little bit's off, it means they're going to have to take an additional movement to initiate that first step. I know you've got a big body of york, like I just said, around that. Can we can you can you share a little bit with me about that and kinda go in
Mark Franco:
some depth there? Okay. I'll start with Chinese internal martial arts. I studied, Tai Chi for a while in Xing Yi, and with the Xing Yi came the. The don't have a lot of experience because I hadn't gone to that part of the teaching. But within it, you have these postures, the Xing Yi especially, you have these postures that you are trying to understand its connection within within yourself and then later within against someone else. How do your connection then starts to transmit over into someone else's body and all that. So there's a whole and and that's to where I when I as I'm teaching, that's that's where you start learning on all the all the joint locks and throws and things like that is how how now by understanding how your body mechanics work, that starts to topple their structure. So the first thing I teach, I think I mentioned this earlier, is is this heaven, earth, and new.
Mark Franco:
To understand the gravity of heaven and gravity of earth and how it connects into our our our our bodies and in our in Chinese on all that stuff. Then we then there's also the shifting of weight and things like that that how how that starts to create a different direction. The lowering, the raising and lowering of the hips and how that starts to create all these different things. And if your kamae isn't correct, you're gonna be in you're gonna you're gonna have instability. And again, in the beginning, that's important. It's important to that you understand your body well enough that you can feel this instabilities. So that if you're if you're not stable, you can correct it, or how to how to move out of it, you know, how how to how to still win even if your body is not not stable. You new, but you've understood that.
Mark Franco:
You've understood that to to to the core. And so, a lot of so when you start looking at Chinese, like, internal practices, like, that some of the Daoist stuff and things like that, you start looking at the different layers that they start talking about. And they talk about this in Chinese medicine as well. You have the the skin, the flesh, the the muscle, the the the the tendon, ligaments, bones, marrow. Right? And so all and how all this how you connect with all that stuff is is is a big part of, like, when I teach, it's it's that. And and if you understand a a a good book that I think that everyone as a martial arts or even as a human should read as anatomy trains, They should have that book in their in the library to understand how the fascia wraps around and connects through the body. And and funny enough, how that lines up to the the the channels that that are talked about in Chinese medicine. So anyway, all these all these different things are are really important to to me on the structure side of it.
Mark Franco:
Again, learning that structure and then learning how that structure defeats an opponent structure as you arts looking at it from a martial stance. There's also obviously, I look at it from a health stance as well and being able to open the body. And, again, I got a lot of that stuff from from Xing Yi Xing Yi because Xing Yi has a lot of really good exercises to open the body and and connect to organ systems and things like that.
Adam Mitchell:
What about the actual first steps that you would have someone focus on once they feel as though they've practiced the kamae? Is there something, whether it's tension in the tanda and whether it's the relaxation of the shoulders, whether it's maybe an exercise that they should work on with their spine, or is it a mindset thing? But what are some, maybe I should, let me rephrase this. What are some of the main obstacles that you see in your students that they need to get through in order to they may have a great posture, low hips, all the things that you're looking for. However, they're just jammed. They're they're clogged being able to move from that. What would you, what would you give us some recommendations?
Mark Franco:
I mean, I hate it's just tension. Everyone has tension. They they I mean, they can have the lowest hips, the straightest spine, all that stuff, but then all of a sudden they're tense. And one of the one of the things that the you wanna you hear this all the time in in in Japan. Right? She got a knight. No power. Take away the power. Take away the tension.
Mark Franco:
Take away all the stuff that's that's creating all these these binding, things like that. And you you have to take that away. You new, you have to get rid of all that stuff. And what you tend to find is the more you relax, the more effective is so different than it was 20 years ago because of this. Because now I look at it from a very, like, body dynamics, you know, how the how the body moves, how the spine moves, how the legs shift, how how the the up and down, how the extensions, the pullings, all these different things that are happening within the body. And if you're balanced, you're so you're very relaxed. I mean, you're very relaxed.
Adam Mitchell:
For for those who may not know, the keyhole and hap hapoh part that Mark's talking about are the foundational techniques, of this martial
Mark Franco:
arts. So, we and in in the martial art we study, there's, you know, you have what's called the and that again is just there's the depth of that practice and how it really starts to change your body, this tight hinge ninpo this way of changing the body to start moving in the way of not just what we study, but Japanese martial arts. There is a foundation that's tied the 2. And if we start going in the historical steps parts of it, you'll start seeing that, you it starts to make way more sense. But the point is that there is one there's this way of tied to This this one thing that you can hear in all all martial arts in Japan, taijutsu. It's this nihon budo, this way of of correct movement, I'll just say. And if you have correct taijutsu, then you have then york everything that you do has is correct movement, whether you pick up a a a sword or whether you, you know, drink a cup of tea. It all has good tied to 2.
Adam Mitchell:
Mark, I know this is a topic books can be written about and have, but our time is only limited here, on this one episode, and we can certainly talk more about it. And I'm sure we will. Before, we finish up, though, is there anything you feel we didn't talk about that's important that, you know, someone who's listening to this and is interested in this topic of kamae, Shinoda?
Mark Franco:
The only thing I could say, I think we did touch on it, is that you have to practice and you have to practice with a sincerity and dedication. If you really wanna learn this stuff, you have to practice. The dojo is your classroom. You have to do the homework. You have to go home and do the homework so that your teacher can look at what you what look at your homework and see where you're deficient and then continue to to put things. If you are a student that or a teacher or we're all students. Right? That is like, man, this is a pretty cool perspective. Find someone that that has these perspectives and just share your thoughts.
Mark Franco:
I mean, there's nothing we are all students, and there's nothing there's nothing wrong.
Adam Mitchell:
I mean, Adam and I,
Mark Franco:
as well as I have I have a handful of friends that I that I talk to all the time that we we we we throw ideas and concepts and, hey, I I kinda figured this out york I think I figured this out. What do you think? You know? And so and I'll go to everyone around me. I don't rank to me as not nothing. It shouldn't be a barrier. It should be something that it it it's it's a goal to to to get that perfection of the of, you new, I we look at Hatsumi sent in. We're like, man, I wanna be that york Takamatsu, I I wanna be that. And so we have our teachers that are helping us get to that. So, anyway, the point is, you know, practice.
Adam Mitchell:
Practice. You've got to train. And I couldn't agree more with your point. In closing here on very often, there's a filtration system in the traditional arts where if you're not gonna do the practice, the arts gonna break you so that you can't carry the practice forward. You can't carry those mistakes forward. And we find that at least I see that very clearly as I get older and more mature in this arts, I see that those traps that Musashi was talking about are very existent in our art. When you do make mistakes and you don't pay attention to those fine details, when you get lazy, when you try to go it on your own because you think you know better, you will get broken, and, you won't be able to continue. And I think your message really is, Mark, to have approaches with an open mind, but also be disciplined enough to train it, and follow the process of shugyo not just go straight to because you think you're better than everyone else or whatever your reasons might be to do that.
Adam Mitchell:
And, yeah, this is very refreshing as always, Mark, to have these conversations with you. I I always leave conversations with you kind of like saying, alright. Well, what does that mean? And, what what you know, how can I how can I expand and and do better, train better, and how can I apply this in in my own work? So thank you for that, man.
Mark Franco:
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to to be here and, and share. You know, hopefully, this is helpful to to everyone, and and, you know, I love having these conversations as well. And I I also when you and I talk, it's always like, you you you it's it's a way to think differently and, and start to practice it. Let me let me see how you talked about this. Let me see if I can practice it this way. Can I find that, you know, all about those things? So, again, I think this is the point. Right? I mean, you know, to not to limit yourself and and and really be there's no end.
Mark Franco:
You know, even if you've gotten the highest rank, there's no end. If there's no yeah. So anyway yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Adam Mitchell:
Mark, where can anybody who's interested in keeping this conversation going with you or learn more from you, learn more about you, where would you, like them to have that at?
Mark Franco:
Well, you can always, reach me at, westladojo.com, dojo you should be able to, you know, if you wanna email me, info at westladojo.com, dojo you can go ahead and email me there, and we can have more conversations if you'd like.
Adam Mitchell:
Great. Mark Franco, thank you so much, my friend. I appreciate you. Take care.
Mark Franco:
You take care. Thank you.
